Talk:Mewing

Technique section too long and unsourced

"beta males may skip this section" etc. seems like unnecessary rambling. sources please Bibipi (talk) 13:50, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

i think it also skips some recommendations, e.g. chewing tough foods? Bibipi (talk) 13:56, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Sure adding more references/video links, still the page is not too long just cuz you say its too long, there are plenty of way longer pages. We should have Will make a guide/rule for how many letters/how long pages should be, what type of page should be X length etc. (a rule book for humor would help as well since there are at least 20 types of humor) https://www.dailywritingtips.com/20-types-and-forms-of-humor/ Most of the wiki humor and perhaps Will's personal favorite form of humor since most was written by Will, is "Burlesque"- Ridicules by imitating with caricature, or exaggerated characterization. Dark/Gallows/Morbid - Grim or depressing humor dealing with misfortune and/or death and with a pessimistic outlook. Also the technique section of mewing is a guide, and thus has to be descriptive. Since mewing is all anecdotal we can "A". Blank the page/remove it or "B". Take out all anecdotal how too's, the pictures, pro-arguments, criticism arguments etc, and just leave the neutral lead that explains what mewing is without going too in depth. "Mewing is a controversial looksmaxxing technique that supposedly improves the bone structure of one's face by continuously pushing the tip of one's tongue and then later the entire underside of the tongue, against the roof of the mouth. The technique has become very popular on YouTube, Instagram and Reddit. The originator, orthodontist Michael Mew, proposed that this technique pushes the central bone of the face (the maxilla) forwards and upwards, improving the facial appearance." Mikey (talk) 17:43, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

actually was able to find a surprisingly large amount of pro mewing studies Mikey (talk) 17:56, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

If you guys want we can still, take out all anecdotal, the how to mew guide, the pictures, pro-arguments, criticism arguments etc, and just leave the neutral lead that explains what mewing is without going too in depth, as well as the empirical studies.Mikey (talk) 18:28, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Chewing tough foods is a recommendation for stronger jaw muscles. Has nothing to do with mewing though. Mikey (talk) 18:44, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Orthodontists scared of losing money/business?

There are tons of empirical data on the benefits of tongue posture/mewing. Are orthodontists throwing Mike Mew under the buss as a strategic business move? What do you guys think? Mikey (talk) 20:04, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Just as plausible as Dr. Mew making bank off insecure teenagers. Who knows what is true. Fact is that the literature is uncertain and all the results you have listed are only indirect evidence that tongue posture has an effect. There is no evidence of this particular technique being effective, neither for children nor for adults. Pretending otherwise seemingly caused him to be expelled from the British Orthodontic Society. Bibipi (talk) 20:21, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

We can't know for sure about the business part, still the science part is completely empirical and verified, actually investigate your links. The reddit post you keep linking in the lead does not lead to any studies, just a discussion among orthopedic doctors. Also the full sentence (quote) is "Although Mew's theory does generate some plausible conclusions that can aid our profession in developing future surgical procedures, the public needs to be made aware that it is not based on sound scientific evidence that would make it a viable alternative treatment to orthognathic surgery." .*https://www.joms.org/article/S0278-2391(19)30349-0/fulltext#back-bib2 Mewing is based on sound evidence just not enough to say no more need for corrective surgeries. Here's a picture of the discussion https://imgur.com/a/6PVDcWf Mikey (talk) 20:47, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

He got kicked out for just posting his theories on the message board, Your statement "Fact is that the literature is uncertain and all the results you have listed are only indirect evidence that tongue posture has an effect. There is no evidence of this particular technique being effective, neither for children nor for adults. " Complete lie, complete bullshit, theres a fucking identical twin study at the bottom of the empirical study section, complete with before and after pictures. I understand your autistic but too lazy to read is too much. Put the same amount of intellectual processing power for pages that don't interest you, as you would for a page that does, such as the scientific blackpill page. Mikey (talk) 22:20, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

One commonly-cited piece of evidence (1999) cited by Dr. Mew is the case of the Creed twins. One twin underwent orthotropic treatment focusing on tongue posture while another opted for a traditional dental appliance. Just using a simple tongue posture adjustment, the outcomes were drastically different for each twin.[8]

Before and after pictures from study https://imgur.com/a/5NqAtRq Mikey (talk) 22:22, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

questionable pic

"Very few professional male models are noticeable mewers. https://imgur.com/a/EERA1GS" how would you even be able to tell their tongue posture. Bibipi (talk) 20:21, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

because phase 1 mewing outlined in green makes the person look like their sticking their mouth out. This is like asking how can you tell if someone is a mouth breather, or has a recessed maxilla. They have a distinct facial profile. Recessed maxilla:https://imgur.com/a/LPcRRwj Mouth breathing:https://imgur.com/a/hb188qA

but knowing you, Bib. You'll say "how is his maxilla recessed? His face is just flat." Or where's the studies proving a flat, pushed in face = a recessed maxilla?" Was about to recommend binge watching FaceandLMS videos but there would be no point, they just would not click. Mikey (talk) 21:31, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Don't use reddit link. Use the link to the actual discussion board among the doctors

https://www.joms.org/article/S0278-2391(19)30349-0/fulltext

Full quote "Although Mew's theory does generate some plausible conclusions that can aid our profession in developing future surgical procedures, the public needs to be made aware that it is not based on sound scientific evidence that would make it a viable alternative treatment to orthognathic surgery." Meaning there is no scientific evidence for mewing being a better alternative to surgical correction. Mikey (talk) 21:31, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

The biggest red flag

is imo that dr. mew, to my (admittedly superficial) knowledge, has not done a proper scientific testing of the mewing method. It is a dirt cheap method should (literally no cost) so it should be extremely easy to test in an experiment. In the "Jaws" book there are examples dating back to 2014 which showed impressive results only after 6 months. So, why is there no solid science, if it is supposedly so effective? People have also raised this argument on reddit, hence why I linked to the reddit threads such that people can see some common pro/contra arguments Bibipi (talk) 00:29, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Can think of a few reasons, like first, when looking at mewing before and after pics of adults. Theres a clear and noticeable difference, but the difference is not life changing. Like the person is only moving up 0.25 points on the decile. The before and after pics are not like the before and after pics of recessed maxilla correction surgery, where the patient goes from a trucel to a straightup chadlite. Also Mew is definitely blackballed from a business standpoint now, so someone other than him would have to get financial backing to do the study at this point. Mewing should be just another technique in the looxmaxing arsenal, not an end all be all to escaping inceldom, like how its been paraded around to be. Been mewing for months now and the best results have actually been on the voice, and singing ability. Which for some reason Mew doesn't talk about much if at all.

Anecdotals for improved singing ability/voice https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/a58wir/mewing_and_singing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/b9ecji/does_mewing_change_ones_voice/ https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/a56cqk/link_between_mewing_and_nasal_voice/ https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/e7d8mx/mewing_improved_my_singing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/bgnynv/benefits_of_mewing_for_one_month/ https://www.reddit.com/r/singing/comments/ebcwdo/your_tongue_posture_effects_your_voice/ https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/dcekv7/does_orthotropics_affect_singing/

Another guy had the same mewing issue as me with increased proclivity toward night time mouth breathing, still also had an increase in singing ability! https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/cfzzto/developed_horrible_oral_habits_when_sleeping/ Mikey (talk) 03:07, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Still if something is supposed to show impressive results within 6 months as in the book, it should have been replicated a couple of times by now, especially being dirt cheap to do. This suggests the results have been cherry picked and the method has a small effect if any. Probably almost none on adults. Sure classical orthodonics have incentives to shut this down to sell their more invasive surgical methods, but they cannot control something that almost costs nothing and for which you'd even find plenty of volunteers as very clearly the demand for such techniques is there. This seems implausible. Bibipi (talk) 02:54, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Impressive is entirely subjective. The author may find a 0.25 or even a 0.50 point increase on the decile without surgery as impressive. Also none of the acedemics use the term mewing, instead they use the term tongue posture. Also on an unrelated note found an obscure study on a more attractive facial profile being correlated with getting hired for a job. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5484273/

Still, even if there is a .5 increase, it wouldn't be that costly to conduct such a study as it involves almost no material. Different from, say, a surgical method. Bibipi (talk) 04:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

the average study costs $45,000 https://truii.com/data-curio-blog/business-insights/how-much-does-research-cost/ With alot of variation, like the lowest cost are like $300 a paper, all of the studies done though are to make a profit, no one in academia does a study unless they earn some money from it, Mew would be no exception. We don't know the entire business side of academia nor their inner politics, a study could cost him tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket for all we know. So we can't just assume we know everything just cuz of high IQ. Also one of Mike's criticisms is him not being good looking. Which is just pure autism, the guy just did not loox max with age. This picture of him at 25. He has the same facial structure as brad pitt, but with a shitty eye area.https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/aqubtk/this_is_what_mike_mew_looked_like_when_he_was_25/ Mikey (talk) 05:39, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Weird findings

Despite mixed anecdotes and controversy on facial aesthetics. There's way more uncontested anecdotal evidence for mewing greatly improving voice/singing quality. What do you guys think of this? Mikey (talk) 03:14, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

random forum users excited about the latest new trick is highly dubious anecdata. i suggest removing it Bibipi (talk) 03:20, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Issues with empirical studies

Currently this entire article still reads too much like advertisement. It's too "one-weird-trick" redpilled and kinda chadsplaing. I think the technique section should be minimal (2 sentences max). Anecdotal evidence and these studies could be joined into one section "anecdotal evidence", because there is not much here, especially not about looks. That section should have 2-3 sentences max. Bibipi (talk) 03:18, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Here are some issues with the provided "evidence":

In a study conducted in 2014 published in the Korean Journal of Orthodontics, the corrective tongue posture technique was able to correct an overbite and bring the entire face forward. After a two-year relapse using retainers, the mewing technique produced lasting effects for 10 years according to the study. However, this particular patient used a tongue elevator to ensure that his tongue was on the roof of his mouth rather than stick to it himself.

Issues: N=1, it's misleading to say that this was accomplished "by mewing" because a tongue retainer was used. Bibipi (talk) 03:18, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

A 2018 study in the journal Radiology and Oncology found significant evidence for “tongue posture” curing anterior open bites in preschool children. The study recommends tongue posture techniques (like mewing) for early childhood development.

There is no evidence of "curing" here. It simply observes a correlation between tongue posture and malocclusion/speech impediment. Bibipi (talk) 03:18, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

A 1997 study published in the Journal of Oral & Facial Pain and Headache found tongue posture on the roof of the mouth to be linked to stronger temporalis and suprahyoid muscles, both required for mastication.

again, "linked" is not necessarily causation, small N

In a 2009 study published in the OOOO Journal (for Oral Surgery, Oral Medicine, Oral Pathology, and Oral Radiology), proper tongue posture was monitored in participants with an average age of 19.6. Results found “significantly more activity in the temporalis and suprahyoid muscle regions as well as a significant reduction in heart rate variability when the tongue was positioned on the palate compared with tongue position on the floor of the mouth.”

tiny sample size too

In a 2010 study published the European Journal of Orthodontics, tongue-repositioning maneuver was found to reduce snoring in patients with a normal BMI when combined with an oral shield.

Ok sample size, but only significant at p < .05, i.e. every twentieth repetition of the experiment could be as extreme or more just by random chance. Now consider that there are hundreds of such studies going on over the course of a few decades and people have an incentive to nudge things a bit to get a better p to avoid having wasted research funds on a null result…

A 2016 study published in The Angle Orthodontist journal concluded with the following: “It is suggested that the development of a correct tongue-to-palate swallowing pattern may form and widen the dental arches during craniofacial development to suit the tongue, while persistence of a swallowing pattern that includes a pressing of the tongue between the teeth may not.”

.05 Bibipi (talk) 03:18, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

In a “highly surprising” 2016 pilot study published in the Muscle, Ligaments and Tendons Journal, a proper tongue position on the palate was found to be linked to a “30% significant increase of knee flexion peak torque.” In other words, tongue posture is linked to the posture of your entire body.

.05 too Bibipi (talk) 03:18, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

One commonly-cited piece of evidence (1999) cited by Dr. Mew is the case of the Creed twins. One twin underwent orthotropic treatment focusing on tongue posture while another opted for a traditional dental appliance. Just using a simple tongue posture adjustment, the outcomes were drastically different for each twin.

N=2 Bibipi (talk) 03:18, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

The Dental Academy of Continuing Education lists in their course on muscle memory the importance of proper tongue posture. They define proper tongue posture as “the apex of the tongue should be resting just lingual to the maxillary anterior teeth and on the incisive papilla of the hard palate.” The course document cites: Hanson, M. L., & Mason, R. M. (2003). Orofacial Myology International Perspectives (Second ed.). Springfield, Illinois: Charles C Thomas.

With 36 citations, this report published by the Oral Health Group finds mouth breathing to be intimately connected to low tongue posture.

tl;dr "36 citations" is empty advertising

This interview with physical therapist Maryvonne Fournier, published in the Journal of Dentofacial Anomalies and Orthodontics (2008), discusses the importance of tongue posture in orthodontic treatment.

Stanford’s biologist and population studies specialist Paul Ehrlich and orthodontist Sandra Kahn have recently co-authored a book Jaws which discusses the “hidden epidemic” of recessed jaw development. The book affirms the importance of proper tongue posture.

dubious as mentioned, but provides lots of anecdata too. so all we have currently is anecdata. if there was more it would have been mentioned in that letter. let's not pretend otherwise with a "list of science" Bibipi (talk) 03:18, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Do literally whatever, man. Found data on mewing to expand the page cuz the page was barren. So every study done on tongue posture, showed a high tongue posture produced favorable results for the body. If there were any counter studies, would of posted them, but there are none. There are no studies that say "tongue posture means nothing." None of the anecdotals have said "Tongue posture does nothing." The guide section is compiled from various in depth lookism guides, most of these posts use some form of the term "ultimate" due to the in-depthness. The guide info comes from lookism, guys trying to ascend, or have ascended which is ofc redpill. Did not come here to offend anyone, and frankly tired of these political faction wars. No longer editing any pages, with any explicit or implicitly ties to pill politics. Mikey (talk) 04:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)